Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #102

Show Notes:

This week, Sara interviews Genna, a senior manager at a nonprofit, to explore the complexities of feedback in professional settings. They discuss emotional responses to feedback, the importance of intentionality, and Genna shares her perspective of what makes feedback meaningful! Subscribe to the podcast for new episodes weekly!

Episode #102: Intentionality in Giving Feedback

Sara: Welcome to Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest on the podcast today, Genna. She's a senior manager at a national nonprofit that focuses on equitable advancement for all. Welcome to the conversation today.

Genna: Thank you, Sara. Thank you so much for having me.

Sara: Awesome. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Genna: I know when we first connected on this I was like, I'm a little nervous about feedback. I think like a lot of people who have had some professional trauma, I get a little pit in the bottom of my stomach. I also, when giving feedback get nervous because I am a hype girl by nature, I'm good at cheerleading and sometimes it's a little bit tough to find something that's actionable. But if somebody says, can I give you some feedback to me? You better believe, even now, even though I know it's not a real question, I'm sweating a little. I'm sweating a little bit, so.

Sara: And I think that's a normal reaction. I mean, I don't love that you have professional trauma, but I think it's important to acknowledge that when we've had really negative examples and interactions with feedback, it's a normal response. Your body wants to protect it. And so when you hear the question, you're like, oh no, brace for impact. And again, you probably talk yourself out of it when you know the person and when you know the context, but the gut reaction is the gut reaction. I'm curious, if you have to do it, do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Genna: I like to give. I like to give feedback to folks because, like I said, the role that I often take on with my teams is to keep everybody excited. When you're working against systems, to change systems, it can get pretty hairy and pretty hard in the trenches. So, I like to be a giver because it allows me to share, get better at offering more than just cheerleading support, and it also kind of compliments my management style, which is keeping this consistent, honest, open human-centered channel of communication open. So, when the feedback time comes, nobody's sweating or scared or anything like that. So that's kind of a little bit about how I approach it.

Sara: Again, from your experience, we can set the table, right?

Genna: Yes.

Sara: We can prepare the room, we can get things set up. I can't control what the other person is feeling, but I can do my best to set the table. If we think about that giver space, how do you go about opening the conversation to give someone else feedback? You've set the room, they're there, they showed up for the reservation, how do you open the door?

Genna: I usually will just start again, just letting folks kind of shake it out and then digging into like, how are you feeling about the work? How are you feeling about the project? What are some things you like, and what are some things that maybe aren't going so well for you? We have a unique kind of setup at our org where, I think I mentioned to you that we're working on implementing this anytime feedback model. Which is meant to be like, throw off some feedback here, there, and everywhere.

I like to be a little bit more thoughtful and intentional, so I ask folks how they were feeling. I try to think of and ask them what worldwide competency model they want to develop. And then I try to make the link in real-time with them about the stuff that's going well and what competencies that aligns to. Because our feedback also goes into our performance review.

And then the things that maybe aren't going so well or that they're struggling with. First, I want to make it a place where they can feel comfortable to say that because I think you and I know it's not always easy. I've gotten better with age, but asking for help or saying let's do a timeout and I need some clarification, not a lot of people are able to do that or feel safe doing that. So making sure that that is okay.

And then like I said, just taking the time and aligning it to what they want to learn. So it's not like a one-off thing. It's something that they can build into their professional development trajectory while addressing or pinpointing something that we can both, you know, I can support them to do better with on the project.

Sara: I mean, I know you were kind of joking like you've gotten better with time. I think it's just sheer repetitiveness in the sense that... I don't think that you get better. There are some skills you can do better about delivering feedback 100%. I think when it is a critical conversation, what people get better at is the discomfort of doing it and the discomfort of the after.

Because it's not easy. I don't think it ever gets like super easy to give that difficult feedback, but if you know that you're doing the right thing, and you've got the data, and you're supporting this person, and you've set it up as best you can, that guilt or worry or stress about like, am I causing harm? If you've done everything possible to set them up, you let it go a little. Not to say you don't care, but you just feel less of the guilt or the worry or the anxiety. A little less, not that it goes away, but a little less of being able to provide that.

I know you shared that key thing for you about feedback is intentionality about opening the space. Can you tell me a little bit about meaningful feedback, if there are other elements that you incorporate into that?

Genna: So, I believe that meaningful feedback, it needs to be actionable. That's why I try to put effort into aligning it with what your career, your professional development plans are. It needs to include an open invitation to check back on progress or to just work together to get something right. I think it comes along with, there's the before the nervousness, the delivery, and after the after is something that you really need to cultivate to continue to build trust. So actionable.

I also think it should include wins. Like, let's talk about how good you did this because nobody wants to just get a list of all the things they have done wrong. There are some types of people in this world that like to weaponize feedback, especially in my organization situation where this is your promotion on the line. So, I think anything that is to like, the word version of pointing a finger and looking like this is not meaningful feedback. But actionable, positive, celebrated wins and leaves and opening for measuring progress, seeing improvement, and celebrating that and just continuing to build a trust-filled relationship following that. So you can feel more comfortable going down the line too, just bringing stuff like that up.

Sara: Right. Because most of us are having ongoing interactions with folks. Certainly, there are folks that you only one time interact with them, but I found that people that I thought that I was only meeting once, I keep running back into them. Because well, our communities have, are big and then also small at the same time. But with the virtual connectedness of things, there's a lot of other ways that folks are connected that I'm like, oh, I didn't realize you knew this, this, and this person. Well, of course, you do, because we operate in this space. Or I didn't know you knew this, this, and this person. I think in that way, it's nice that it also is both big and small at the same time.

Genna: Yeah, especially for those of us that are crazy enough to be like, let's change some systems. You got to. So, yeah. Thanks for bringing up that.

Sara: Absolutely. I'm wondering if you can think back to your experience of a time where either you received meaningful feedback or you saw someone else delivering meaningful feedback. Just walk us through a little bit about how you observed and how you knew you were getting meaningful feedback.

Genna: I got some really great feedback from somebody that I consider a mentor within my organization, who also is the lead for many of the projects that I work on. Those things that I really like. They're like, "Hey, this is great. This is great." And he also went into the thing that maybe wasn't so great, but started out like it was, "Genna's out and about. Genna's an ambassador for the org and our work. Genna's applying to conferences." And then it came down to a succinct sentence at the end that said, "Sometimes it takes away from her regular work time." So if we could say whatever, she was maybe thinking a little too big, trying to be that, what did you teach us about? My silly, I'm trying to connect everybody.

And sometimes I fall out of scope. So he's like, "Genna is great in representing our organization. The only thing I think that separates her from advancement is being able to know the balance between those two things." So, I did not feel bad for the extra stuff I was doing. I felt proud of it. But I heard loud and clear what I needed to do, which is, you can still do this stuff, but make sure your regular stuff that people are waiting on, obviously is done first. Because sometimes it's always that push and pull.

So it had the wins, I could see the love, I could see the appreciation for my work, I could understand what the concern was, and I knew what I could do about it after. So that felt very, very good to me. That's just one example. I work with some people too that are great. They get to that point a little bit quicker, which I need to work on like not taking that personally. That's just their delivery of something. But the way that this particular piece of feedback was delivered was helpful for me. Cause I didn't feel like I was being torn down. I didn't feel like it was being weaponized. And I felt like I had a good direction and felt like I can say, "Hey, can you support me as I regain focus and move on this path to my career trajectory?" That's exactly what happened after and we've continued to work with each other on that for this whole year.

Sara: I love that example. And I'm going to presume that person took a lot of time to think about how you might best receive it. Right?

Genna: Yes.

Sara: Now I'm not sure if they were like sitting like, well, Genna values this. I'm not sure that was the moment, but it sounds like all the things you just defined in meaningful feedback, they did. And I think that we don't always ask that or know that. I know a lot of folks that make presumptions about what people want to hear. And I would hope that part of entering a relationship where you do have some supervisory authority or you do have feedbacking authority to ask that person, like, how do you like it? How would you like it prepared? Because it's going to happen and I want to make sure that it does so in a way that actually will make a difference for you.

With that in mind, I'm curious, you interact both internal to the organization, you interact with a lot of folks. I mean, in your kind of like title on LinkedIn capacity, but there's that section at the bottom, which is other things you're involved in. This is also a long list. I'm wondering as you think about feedback, what is one thing that you wish people could just do better about feedback in any kind of lens? What would it be?

Genna: Assume good intent or best intent. That's a universal role for things. I think that's kind of foundational. And even if it is maybe delivered in a way that makes you not feel so good, face it like you have done with maybe another thing that maybe didn't make you feel so good and try to find a way around or through it.

Yeah, I think, try to assume best intent and always, like you said, think about how everybody else would receive it. Not everybody thinks like that. How old am I? 43 years old and I'm like, wait, you mean everybody doesn't think about how everything they do might harm somebody? No, that's not the world we live in. That's my world. But think about what it is building for this person. Don't use it as a mechanism to tear someone down or exercise power. That's not what feedback is about. We're ultimately trying to make our own team better. It's like we're providing pure conditioning and consultative. It's a bonus when you really think about it. So, yeah.

Sara: I think you would probably not be surprised. Assuming best intent is a theme that I do hear from folks. But there was something in the way that you shared it, which kind of made me think about, it's not just assuming best intent. I guess I want to clarify. For the giver, How do you assume the best intent of the person who you're giving it to? What were they trying to do? Maybe it went off the rails, but what were they trying to do?

But then as the receiver, how can I assume that this person tried to craft this and they tried to do it well and they're failing at delivery? I think it's just blanket assuming best intent, and we could have probably a whole separate and long conversation about why do people jump to negative intent, which is a different podcast. But I think that on both sides, not just, well, why aren't they thinking about my best intent? Okay, but are you thinking about their best intent? And on both sides, how can we make this a little bit more open?

I'm thinking about your specific role. You interact with a lot of folks. And while certainly, whether or not you supervise a team, you were mentioning that you have this new process around like, try to give everyone feedback. How does that get encouraged? How do you enable that to happen? Because you can't just be like, everyone, today's the day we're going to feel safe enough to do feedback and like go forth and do it. How do you enable or encourage others either to do that with you or to do that with each other?

Genna: I think that's where we could use a little bit more building of that muscle as an organization because right now it's an Asana task, like every quarter. It's like ask your colleagues for feedback. We've developed our own kind of like, I don't want to say alternative, but like supplementary systems where we schedule time to talk before we submit the written feedback. It's not co-writing it, because that takes away from whatever, but it also allows folks to talk through and maybe find, "I assume your best intent in doing this task didn't turn out the way it did. How can I support you?" It allows you to identify some of that.

But I think, like you said, it's not just let's do it. You know, I was freaking out when this whole thing started because I'm like, it takes you like two hours to write something because I want to make sure that it's actionable, meaningful, it celebrates their wins and it gives people... You know, it's a motivation, good, positive motivation while addressing an issue or something that's maybe been a difficulty.

There's this really great podcast that I listen to and go through a lot of articles. There's a lot of great articles on HBR, lots of examples of how to write it. You've got to practice it. If you do it every quarter and you focus on just the things that are impacting you and point out all the things that are lacking, that's not building a muscle. That's building resentment. I think it's a lot more than saying, let's do it. And we've been doing this for about a year now and I really applaud the efforts. I think we needed some more just training or office hours or talking through how to do that. Because not everybody is conscious of the same things when they're giving feedback. They're trying to get it off their Asana to check off the Asana task, and I'm trying to make sure that somebody feels positive about their place on my team and they want to do better.

Sara: Yeah. And it might be an opportunity for your org, and I'm sure you've talked about it, but what's the point of doing it, right? I mean, in a universe where we do annual performance reviews, everyone in HR knows that shouldn't be the only time you're giving feedback. But in an entity it's like, oh, it takes forever, we can only afford to do it once a year. And as you were saying, you're right. It is going to take a long time if you're only doing it once a year, and that's the only time you think like, no, we should talk about why is it not happening every other time in the year, and why isn't it happening kind of more organically and what's getting in the way of that, and let's talk about the value of it, and what happens if we don't do it, which is a whole different conversation to have than like, did you enter the thing? Did you check it out?

Genna: Yeah, did you put it in Culture Amp? Did you write the paragraph? And it's just like, yeah. But is that helpful to the org as a whole or the individual that I wrote it to?

Sara: Right, absolutely. Well, for our last question in our time together, Genna, can I offer you some feedback?

Genna: I'd be honored, Sara, to receive some feedback from you.

Sara: Well, you and I partnered on a consulting project. I was one of the members of the team and you were on the client side. And one of the things I really loved working with you on, and I know you mentioned cheerleading a little bit earlier, but you were one of the most enthusiastic receivers of tough information that I have seen in a while. Some people are ready for it or they want to hear it, but you're like, no, let me know.

And sometimes we had to share things that were a little complicated or a little tricky and some people shy away from that. And I just saw you diving in more. Not that you're looking for trouble, but that you were so eager to hear a different perspective, or another view, or another angle. I mean, I know we told you in the moment, but it was so refreshing to have someone who was so not excited to hear bad news, but excited and interested to hear tough news. And, okay, thank you for sharing it and what's your idea? What can we do? Or what has to change, or how can we help?

And it's kind of "a dream" situation to have, but it's not just listening, especially on the specific team with whom we were working, we felt, or I can speak for me, I felt your team really wanted to do it and you were excited about doing it. And it's not always that. I work on projects, people are doing it but they don't really want to do it. It was always interesting. And I feel like that is, A, a combination of the group with whom you were working, but I think a little bit of just you very excited to be like, what an opportunity! Like, we get to do this, and we get to explore this, and we get to dig in. And I think that that enthusiasm and excitement, I just love bringing and I sometimes bring it to my projects and people are like, but this is horrible, and this is hard, and this is bad. I'm like, I know, but isn't it fun?

Genna: It's an opportunity.

Sara: Yeah. And again, I don't want people to get hurt and I don't want things to be going poorly. And we were not in that kind of situation. But I really appreciate that. And so I'm so grateful that we get to stay connected. And I just wanted to say thank you for that.

Genna: I really, really, really appreciate that. You set us on a path with that project for like, real change has happened in the past couple of years. I'm going to butcher this but the James Baldwin quote about if I love you, I have to show you the things that you're not conscious of. And in the work that I do, and you do, you can't change something unless you know where it is. We sometimes get in these bubbles of reinforcement and nothing changes and you're worried more about ego than systems change. And it was so refreshing to have somebody with your expertise in with that group. I know we had some folks that didn't like it as much, but I'm glad that I was able to counter some of that because it really was an exciting process. So thank you very, very much.

Sara: I'm so glad. Well, Genna, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.