Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #106
Show Notes:
For this week’s interview, Sara interviews Blake, VP of client engagement at a staffing and recruiting company. Blake and Sara explore the nuances of how context, tone, and the relationship between individuals can shape the experience of giving or receiving feedback. Blake shares his insights into crafting meaningful, actionable feedback and creating a culture of open communication in your team. Subscribe to the podcast for new episodes weekly!
Episode #106: The Role of Context and Tone in Feedback
Sara: Welcome to, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Blake. He's a VP of Client Engagement at a staffing and recruiting company. Welcome to the show today.
Blake: Thank you for having me.
Sara: All right. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback, what's your gut reaction when you hear that?
Blake: Uh-oh. I think it depends certainly on who it is coming from and the tone in which it is delivered. I think that could vary between a family member, a spouse, a coworker, a boss. I think it certainly depends on who's delivering that statement. But my gut reaction was uh-oh.
Sara: Something's coming. And when you think about that feedback, again, I totally appreciate who it's coming from, obviously makes a difference. The context makes a difference. When you're thinking about feedback, do you prefer to be someone who gives feedback or who receives feedback?
Blake: I personally would say receives.
Sara: Okay. Tell me more.
Blake: Well, I think it's an opportunity to learn about something that might have been in a blind spot for you. So if someone is open to sharing that with you, chances are you're learning about something from their perspective that they noticed that you could learn and grow from.
Sara: Ooh, I like that. Because it's not just about the feedback they're delivering, it's about what they value, right? Because if they're taking the time to bother to share it, then it must be important to them enough to say it to you. You know what I mean?
Blake: Absolutely.
Sara: Oh, okay. Well, if you like being on the receiving end, how do you ask others for feedback? How do you reach out to be the one who's the recipient?
Blake: I'm very direct. So typically I'm just asking for it. If I'm sharing, "Hey, here is a new idea that I have for a project for our company. Here's why I think we need a change. Here's what I think the change should be. What do you think from your perspective?" I think a lot of times that is coming from, "You're not in our department, so I'd be curious, what is your perception of this, what I have just shared from your seat?" And it gives an opportunity to get insight from those individuals that would be potentially coming from a different lens of view.
Sara: Yeah. Because of course, they have a different perspective. I like how you open it up in a question, though, instead of the statement, like, what do you think? What do you see? As a way to get them involved in the process along the way.
Blake: Yeah. I think it kind of goes back to my original uh-oh. It's all in the framing of it and how it is positioned. And I think if you're asking for it, that is viewed potentially and hopefully by those that you're asking as, awesome, I'm being asked what my opinion is so they can feel valued in that I am seeking that from them versus if you're giving feedback, there's a whole other can of worms there. But that's why I selected my answer.
Sara: Well, let's talk about a little bit on the feedback side. When you're trying to craft meaningful feedback for someone. What are some of the components that you think about, or how do you go about defining that this is going to be meaningful for this person?
Blake: I think in any form of communication, and we'll specifically talk about feedback since that's our topic here today, is creating something that is very specific and that is actionable. And I think it's important that if you're the one giving the feedback, you're sharing from my perspective, this is what I have seen. And then asking, would you agree with that? Or could you see my point of view and why I shared that? I think it's important to, again, be specific with what it is that you're delivering and seek that, are we in agreement that this is accurate?
Sara: Yeah. I really like that and I mean, to go back, I think that's perfect for also what you do, right? You're not in client services, you're in client engagement. And engagement is around question-asking, right? Do you see it that way? Do you also experience it in that way? So it's almost as if you're really great at your job and all of this was a lie.
But I think it's a perfect example to kind of highlight that and show how those two things are connected in that the questions that you're asking after you've delivered it, like, do you see it that way? Is that also true for you? Makes a difference in what you think is valuable for the delivery, if you know what I mean.
Blake: Absolutely.
Sara: So could you share maybe a specific example or a time when maybe you've received meaningful feedback or you saw someone else delivering it? What was that kind of scenario? And then how did you know that meaningful feedback was being delivered?
Blake: Does the name Ned Parks mean anything to you?
Sara: Yeah.
Blake: And I can't recall, this was several years ago. And by several, I mean, 10 or more. I'm not sure if it was him giving a presentation or if it was a podcast he had done, but it was specific to feedback. And one of the things that he mentioned was, "When I am giving feedback, I like to say, 'This is what I liked about what you did. What I would like to see the next time is X.'"
And I thought that was a very important way to frame up giving feedback and leading with a compliment. Because certainly most of the time you're giving feedback. The feedback is something that you want changed. And that could be perceived as I didn't do something right, or I'm not good at my job, or that could be a negative connotation towards the person receiving it. So starting with that, what I really liked about what you did was this, next time what I would like to see just very smoothly transitions into the feedback that you're giving.
Sara: Yeah. And I love that framing that he's used on the, what I'd like to see next. I think that's really helpful in that's his perspective. That's his view, right? You might like to see something else different, but for him, that would be important for him to see next time. I really like that phrasing. It brings kind of another lens to perspective and viewpoint and like, this is just my opinion on what I'd like to see next time, but what do you think, right? It invites a little bit of dialogue and acknowledges our own framing for it, you know?
Blake: Absolutely.
Sara: So, you encounter a lot of folks who are giving you feedback, all the clients that you're working with. You're also giving feedback as part of the team, the folks who supervise, the rest of the organization, and in the other commitments that you have probably a lot of feedback being delivered there. If magically tomorrow everyone could do one thing better regarding feedback, what would it be?
Blake: I think it goes back to the specific clarity that I was talking about. And here is a specific example. So if someone were to say, I think that you're rude. Okay, could you give me a specific example on a situation in which you perceived what I had done as rude? Because I might not fully understand what it is that you're talking about.
So I think anytime that we could use specific examples, that's very helpful to put the context a little bit closer together versus 30,000 feet feedback. And that way we can come out of that with something actionable and tangible because we're talking about a specific situation.
Sara: Right. And picking on rude, it's a great example in that I think a lot of times, I know I talk with a lot of teams that make the assumption that they have the same vocabulary, right? And when that person explains to you, what did rude mean? Oh, well, we scheduled this meeting for 10:00 and you came in at 10:01 and you showed me the utmost insult because you were so late. And you're like, "I was a minute late." And they're like, "No, you needed to be here before I got here." And they're like, "Oh, okay. I didn't know that you thought that that was rude." Because I didn't grow up in a family that if you're on time, you're late. You need to be 15 minutes early. But some people do. And for them, that's considered rude if you're showing up on time. You need to be early in order to be on time.
Blake: Absolutely.
Sara: And so if we don't have the same definition, we're going to be in trouble.
Blake: That was such a fantastic example because so many different things came to mind related to situations like that and the perception of it. I know that one exactly, we had a conversation at work because our hours are 8:00 to 5:00. But we also promote a flexible work schedule. And there's times when people roll in at 8:10, 8:13. Me, I'm the person that if you're on time, you're late. I get to the office sometime between 7:00 and 7:30. That is on time for me.
So it's interesting that you would use that specific example because I think that's so true depending upon your upbringing, the place at which you work, certain lingo. I had a situation today where a prospect of mine had sent an email and used a terminology that I will not bore you with. But I reached back out and I said, "Can we talk because we're not talking about the same thing?" He used an acronym that is very prevalent in our industry, but it wasn't about the service that we had talked about. I said, "I want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing so that I can accurately answer your question because we're at a little bit of a different page right now."
Sara: Yeah. And that happens all the time. Even within organizations, as you said, folks on your team. And it's not just punctuality. It's things like the word teamwork, right? Stuff that some people feel is so obvious. Of course, we have the same definition of feedback even, right? It's terms like this that we think we know, but there's a wide range of definitions, and if we don't actually talk about it, then we're going to make a lot of assumptions, right?
Blake: Yes.
Sara: And some of these words have a lot also layered into it like professionalism or accountability. It gets complicated again if we're not all talking from the same dictionary and we're not all reading from the same place.
Blake: And specific to feedback, I would be interested to know how many people, so let's say I am giving you feedback right now. And we leave the conversation and you share with someone, "Blake just told me what to do." And I share with someone, "I gave her fantastic feedback." I viewed it as feedback. You viewed it as I was just told what to do.
Sara: Yeah. And that framing again it's, from my perspective, I heard the words you said. I also layered on my perception of tone, my perception of intent, my perception of any other biases I might have. There's a bunch of other stuff that I'm adding to it. Just like when you're delivering it, you're carefully throwing in things and you're thinking about X, Y, and Z. And when you reflect on it, you're like, I did a pretty great job for what I was trying to do.
But you also know a bunch of ways it could have gone, you know other words, and we're both coming at it from very different views of what actually happened. And even if there's a third party who witnessed it, they're going to have a version which is also different from what you and I came up with.
And it's the kind of thing where in a meeting, again, it's a simple thing, but if you don't take time at the end to like really outline the action points, you go, "We don't need to do that. Everyone knows what they need to do." And I'm like, "Want to bet?" I'm like, guarantee is that at this meeting, there's going to be confusion about three of the things. Guarantee. And like, are you willing to bet on it? Because again, that's why you got to save time for that. Because if you don't, we're going to meet about the same stuff next week and I don't want to repeat the meeting.
Blake: One hundred percent.
Sara: But again, it takes time to do. I'm curious as a person who supervises others again, both at work and in other contexts as well, sometimes when we are recognized as the expert on a thing or the leader in a situation, people just want us to fix it all, right? Like, "Oh, this isn't working." "Well, make Blake do it." Or, "Oh, these people aren't talking to it." "Blake, can you talk to them individually?" How do you enable either on your teams or the groups that you're working with, how do you encourage people to share feedback with each other? Not just with you.
Blake: Oh, share feedback with each other. I think you have an opportunity to facilitate that by calling people out. And when I say calling people out, I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. But if we're in a meeting and person A is sharing an idea that they have and, "Hey, I think we should do this and that. This would create a better outcome for us specific to this project." I could say, "Thank you for sharing. Person B, what are your thoughts on that?" Because that person one might not feel comfortable unsolicited sharing their feedback. So, being in the position of leading the meeting to call on person B to say, "Hey, what are your thoughts related to this?" That shows that you value their opinion and gives them the opportunity to share that.
Sara: Yeah, we always have more information that may be actually going on. It's opening the door for that person to participate without being like, "Hey, Jim, I know you've got an opinion." We don't want to put the person on the spot, but how do we create the environment where they feel comfortable to jump in with their idea or participate in the conversation?
Blake: And the other interesting part about that is if person B, I don't know why I just didn't use real people's names. I'm person A, person B. But they're both great people.
Sara: I pick on Jimmy all the time, so it's okay.
Blake: Person B, if we are asking them to provide feedback on person A's idea, that might open up an opportunity for person B to ask some clarifying questions related to what person A shared because they're not in their head. They have not done all of the pre-work to present this idea. And they might bring something up that person A had not considered or that even me as the leader of that group was not thinking about because they're viewing it from a completely different angle. And I think there's certainly a ton of value in that as well.
Sara: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And how do I make the space for them to do that? I think I see that in some situations you see yourself as like the convener of the environment, right? Like, how do I set up the room so that the dialogue can happen and maybe one day they'll do it by themselves? But for some folks, person A, person B, they might need my help to set the room, set the stage, and then they can have the conversation and I can jump in where I need to.
Blake: Yeah. And this is a little bit more difficult, but someone that does that extremely well is Gene Roberts, who is our EOS Implementer if you are familiar with EOS or not. But he is an outside consultant that is helping us through this process of EOS. If you're interested, EOS Worldwide, just Google that and you'll get there.
When we are what we call IDSing, identify, discuss, and solve any issues or opportunities, he will as an unbiased third party say, "Blake, you haven't contributed anything to this conversation. It looks like there's something on your mind. Can you go ahead and share that?" And he's very direct about that. But it's valuable because those that are having the conversation are just continuing, they're going through the back and forth and asking clarifying questions. He's very good at saying, "I know that you have something to say, would you please share it right now?"
Sara: And again, folks can look that up. It's the entrepreneurial operating system, and it's a method for organizations to kind of work on their goals and plan their operations. I think with that style, it is a more directive kind of system, right? Being really clear, getting that feedback and of course, building trust and having clarity on the goals and the outcomes and the milestones.
I think that really resonates because maybe for you, you're a direct person. Well, you're direct when you're ready to go. But I think that in the meetings, you're 100% right. People can get caught up and carried away and not be aware of the fact that they're doing a lot of talking and that other people aren't talking and that they're not involved. And it doesn't mean that they disagree. It just means they're not participating. And when folks aren't participating, again, you can keep up with the conversation, but you kind of start to tune out.
And how do we actually make it valuable? Like, we wanted four people in this meeting. Four people should be participating. Not just two people excitingly chatted at each other and two people watching them. Like, how does everyone involve in the conversation? I appreciate that Gene's able to do that and kind of get you guys all talking. Because again, you're there for a reason. You're not there to take minutes. You're not there to write the notes. You're there to participate and to give your feedback and be involved in the conversation.
Blake: Agreed.
Sara: Well, for our last question in our time together, I'm wondering, Blake, can I offer you some feedback?
Blake: Would you please?
Sara: I'd be delighted. Well, we haven't had the opportunity to work too much together. We've kind of intersected in a number of events, and we're both involved in the HR community here. But one of the things that I've really appreciated, the event that we worked on, I think most closely is a kind of high energy, exciting event. There's a little bit of stress and tumult involved, but I find that whenever I do get to interact with you, whether at that event or at other times, you are so energetic and so positive about like, let's do it. Let's try it. Who cares? We'll figure it out.
And I think that sometimes folks who are very high energy and very enthusiastic, I feel like they don't have a sense, sometimes there's a blindness to the enthusiasm. Like everything is great. That's different than I feel like you've got this realistic optimism. Like, you know what? We're rolling with it now. We're going to figure it out. And like, that's okay. And you're going to do a great job. Or, you know, it's going to go fine. And like, if it doesn't, okay, we're here with our colleagues. We're here with our friends.
At least for me, I found it to be very warm and very heartening and I really am like, I want to work with Blake more. I enjoy the spirit of like, let's figure it out. Let's try it and if it doesn't go 100% perfect, it's okay. Right? This is an environment, this is a community that wants to support us and wants you to do well and like, let's run with it. So I know whenever I see your name on the list, I'm like, okay, let me give it a shot because I know I'm going to be supported. And I really appreciate that and I wanted to say thank you for that.
Blake: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that for someone that has had such, in the grand scheme of things, limited interactions with me, that means a lot to me that that has been your takeaway this far. Certainly, you pretty much hit me spot on for our limited interactions. I would say that was very accurate. Anytime something doesn't go right, I always just say, "All right, let's solve the problem." One of my favorite sayings is, "Boy, what a bunch of first-world problems that we have right here."
Sara: I know.
Blake: And it certainly lightens the mood because in the time, this is so serious or so urgent, but in the grand scheme of things, we'll certainly be able to solve it and work through it.
Sara: Right. Like, "Oh no, your PowerPoint won't load." Like, "I think it'll be okay.
Blake: Yeah. "Oh no, my camera wouldn't work. So I've been off camera this entire clock," yes.
Sara: Like it's fine.
Blake: You didn't get to see me smiling as you were sharing the feedback.
Sara: But I could hear your smile. I could hear you smile. And I think that is important not only in our work, but it's important in a lot of different spaces, right? The groundedness to see the perspective and urgency. Like, yeah, sure it's important, but like urgent? Or like, is this really going to make or break it? Probably not. And I think a lot of people miss that perspective when they're feeling anxious or when they're feeling nervous and I know that others also react to that.
But Blake, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. And we would love to hear from you on your thoughts, on feedback, or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.