Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #110

Show Notes:

This week, Sara interviews Erin, a development director at a nonprofit that helps individuals experiencing homelessness. Erin shares how she uses positive reinforcement to build trust and open communication to improve both giving and receiving feedback. Whether you’re looking to improve your feedback skills or curious on how it can foster growth, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways! Subscribe to the podcast for new episodes weekly!

Episode #110: Building Trust with Positive Reinforcement

Sara: Welcome to Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest on the podcast today, Erin. She's a development director currently working with a nonprofit focused on providing services for individuals experiencing homelessness. Welcome to the conversation today. 

Erin: Thank you so much, Sara, for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

Sara: Delighted. So, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback, what is your gut reaction when you hear that? 

Erin: I would say that Erin, a basic human being, my first reaction is one of fear. And that goes back to, you know, I grew up in Houston, and my survival instinct was to be as perfect as possible at doing the right thing, avoiding conflict, being really nice to people. And that instinct in me, when I first hear that feedback, it's the fear that I haven't done something right. And when it's logical, Erin in the truth, I give feedback every day. I ask for feedback every day because that's how I establish that safe environment for other people to have a good working relationship with me. 

Sara: Yeah. I think for a lot of people, it's the unexpected, create some of that fear and unknown of, I don't know what they're going to say. It's different when you're the one soliciting it. It's different when you're asking for it. You know and you're already prepared for it. I think you kind of touched on it, but if you had to decide which do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback? 

Erin: Well, first I'd like to change that for me, my first instinct when I hear feedback is that it's something negative when actually a lot of feedback is actually very positive. And in my life and in my work, I try to really lean in to giving a lot of unsolicited positive feedback. Because I think other people are like me. Like we're harder on ourselves than we need to be and when you have positive feedback it allows you to recognize what you're doing right and really lean into it. 

Recently, I was talking to a volunteer at my organization and I told her, I said, "We're so grateful to have you. And last week I was in the room when you were talking to a new resident in our shelter and you did such a great job of explaining what to expect, helping him feel welcome, and thank you for that." I tried to be very specific. And she in turn said, "You're always thanking me, but I want to thank you because in this year I've had an incredibly challenging time. My mother passed, I've had to move, and so coming here every week and helping people has really been something stable," for her. And so, I really believe in giving that positive feedback because it allows people to feel like they've been seen. And to me, it's so rewarding to have had that real conversation with her and know what's really going on with her. 

Sara: And I think sometimes I love that you focus on, again, from that space of gratitude and appreciation, because I agree, a lot of the feedback that folks are preparing or delivering is very deficit-oriented or what's wrong or what the problem is. And it takes effort to go through and as she was recognizing you always take the time to come in and thank me and to talk about what's working and what's going well. And that is unfortunately rare for a lot of people in their experiences. 

I'm wondering, once you've obviously set the stage and you've thanked people when you do have to deliver feedback to that person, let's say there was something after her welcome of that guest or after that you need to, how do you prepare or do that segue or move into that so that it doesn't feel like you thanked them just to go to the, you know, like, all right, Erin thanked me, what's next? How do you prepare that or how do you kind of make that transition? 

Erin: My spouse is always telling me to be direct. And so I just say, "I noticed this happened. What do you think?" I feel like if you're always in that cycle of positive feedback and you don't spend too much time thinking what's the right way to say this and it's just honest, it's coming authentically out of one person who really values the other person and you together both want the best outcome, then I just have a conversation. 

Obviously I've thought a lot about feedback before we had this podcast because that's just how I operate. One thing I think, especially in work, we often think about feedback and performance reviews. So as a manager and actually as someone reporting up to a manager, I feel like it's always important that there's never any surprises. Feedback should be something continuous. And it actually takes away that big pressure, the performance review, because there's never going to be a moment that something will be a surprise. And to me, that's about establishing that safe connection to the other person. 

I was recently at a presentation at Cleveland Clinic by the nursing team. And they said we need to care for our nurses, like managing our nurses as making sure we understand what's going on for them. Because good human beings help other human beings. People who feel good in their life and feel set and stable, they're at their best to help others. 

Sara: Like the phrase of you can't fill from an empty cup, you know? That doesn't mean it has to be full all the way, but if it's empty, empty, you can't do much with that. And I do agree, caring for those people changes the way we approach, again, the feedback we're delivering, but then being able to support and kind of serve others and be really present with them to be able to kind of make that connection. 

I'm curious, and you give feedback in a number of different settings and you get a lot of feedback. Again, being in development, it's constant feedback from all the different relationships that you have. How do you define meaningful feedback or what's included in it that we haven't already touched on? 

Erin: To me, the most meaningful feedback is the big picture feedback. Well, here, I'll kind of give an example. Recently, we had a committee meeting and a lot of small things went wrong. Like I could tell my brain was short-circuiting. So afterwards, I think the next day I called the committee chair and I said, "I want some feedback. I want to tell you the situation, but I want some feedback." And I told him, I'm like, "The bathroom floors were dirty, and I was trying to clean up the bathroom floors with paper towels before the meeting started. We ran out of water bottles," all these little things. And I said, I need admin help, and it's making it so that I'm losing picture of helping facilitate a deeper conversation.

And what was meaningful, he saw me. He said, "First, you are like me. You're a perfectionist. So you want things to go well. And that's understandable. So we'll solve that." He said, "But I want you to realize overall it was a good meeting." And sometimes you can tweak something to death where you're trying to focus also on all the little things and overall it's a bad meeting, and so you really need to step back and have that conversation about why it went wrong. And those things about why it went wrong don't necessarily have to do with all the little details. They have to do with the one-on-one connection.

Sara: That makes it challenging like when you wouldn't... I also feel the perfectionism. You know, there are some times when Maybe I'm presenting, or I'm watching a presentation, and let's say there's a typo on the slide, or there's a typo in the handout, or I pick the wrong word, or I've... At one presentation I was talking about diffusing conflict and I used diffusing like a diffuser for like aroma, not defusing like a bomb. 

And so I had a participant call me out on it and I became fixated on it for the rest of the presentation. I was noticing everywhere like, is that the right one? Did I pick the right word? It's the kind of thing that only I'm seeing, right? And the fact that I'm calling attention to it, other people are seeing it, and is that helpful? Like, folks are okay with a typo depending on where the typo is. Folks get that you're a human, you make mistakes. I turned it into a joke at the end, but it's the kind of thing that like, sure, stuff happens, move on. 

And when it's hard to let go of that, and I really appreciate his feedback too, of like, I hear you. I saw it too, but it was a good meeting. And that's what we're trying to do. It was a good meeting and don't lose sight of that with the small stuff. Now, sometimes the small stuff does make a big difference. But I really like that he helped, as you were saying, set the bigger picture for what actually happened or what was the end result and like, sure, next time I'm sure you'll take care of it. But for right now, it was okay. It went okay. We got what we needed to, and no big deal. Right? If you do it another three or four times, then maybe. But for this meeting, it was just fine. It was just fine. 

And I love that you gave that specific example of how that really made a difference in you being able to receive it and what context that kind of provided for it. So, thank you. You've seen feedback again at the individual level, at the organizational level, as a supervisor, as someone who is supervised, with donors and clients and contacts and grants. If there was one thing you wish everyone could just do better with feedback, one thing that tomorrow everyone just gets it, what is that one thing that you wish folks could do a better job with? 

Erin: I think be brave and just give that feedback. Sometimes I'll notice a dynamic where employees, they might all notice something in a meeting or a dynamic, but they don't, for whatever reason, feel comfortable sharing that with the leader. But we're actually all in it together. It's the same thing of, don't ever put an email what would actually be better and quicker just to say in person. 

Sara: I think we forget that, sure, email's easier, it's faster, but usually for me, when I get to sentence four in an email, I need to pick up the phone. Because the more I type, the less clear. And I can write long documents, but sometimes it's just complicated, or it's easier just to choose a different medium for the conversation, or if I know that other person does well a different way, typically for a lot of people it's when we change. Sometimes they use text or sometimes they use email or sometimes they use call. It's getting clearer about that. 

But I really like that thinking about just giving it. And if it feels scary or if you feel afraid, like, let's talk about that. What makes you uncomfortable to give that leader feedback? Are they not going to receive it? Do they not care? You know, is my job on the line? What about offering it is the problem? And let's talk a little bit about that. And folks do that in a number of different ways. But that's an interesting aspect of it, that there is a lot of fear in providing folks with things that they notice that maybe they're not aware of, and kind of identifying or highlighting that blind spot that might be going on. 

Again, as you supervise and you've supervised before, sometimes, in your role, I'm imagining folks come to you and they just want you to fix it, right? Well, why don't you tell the major donor this? Or you go tell like XYZ department this? Or can you just, you know... How do you encourage either your team or the teams or the committees that you're on to share feedback with each other? Not that you don't want to be the go-between, but it's so much more impactful if they told the director themselves, or if they told the... You know, can you do it? Yes. Are you the right person to do it? So how do you get folks to embrace that they should be the ones who deliver the feedback? 

Erin: My first question might be, have you shared this with the person directly? Sometimes they'll say yes. And then sometimes they'll say no. But just having that question. I also have a very low tolerance for gossip. I think I've realized that gossip is something different from feedback. But I think I have such a low tolerance that I put that out there. And so, if you're coming to me with a problem, there's no room for gossip. There is room for problem-solving. 

Sara: Right. Yeah. And it is a solutions orientation to it. I would imagine, and you're not alone in this. A lot of folks, I'll listen to you vent once, I want to be here for you, I want to empathize with your situation, but this is the third time that you're coming with this specific problem with this specific person. What are you going to do about it? What's your plan? What's your proposal? Are you telling me because you need my help? Like, what are we doing here? 

And at a certain point, that can feel uncomfortable for people, but I don't know what you want me to do with this info. And if you want me to just be a sounding board, I'm not sure, I'm not the right person. Here's our employee assistance program. I think that's a challenge for some people because admittedly a lot of people don't have folks whom they can confide in about work stuff.

Erin: That's fair. 

Sara: And so it's natural and easy to do it with work people because they're there and they know all the players and they know the context and maybe folks at home don't care or maybe folks at home are pushing them in directions that they don't want to... You know, like, well, what did you tell them? And they're like, I didn't do anything. But having someone to talk to who knows is a lot easier, but does it help or does it make sense or is it appropriate or whatever it is? And that's the second half, you know. I imagine that makes it challenging for folks to come to you if they think at a certain point, you're just like, this isn't getting anywhere, this isn't doing anything, and it isn't moving us forward, which is a, a letdown for the other person. But then they're real clear on what we are and are not doing. Which I think is important. 

Erin: In homeless services, the job can be stressful where you're supporting clients who've been through a lot. And sometimes something goes wrong that day and their emotions are heightened. And so there's that secondary stress. That said, there's actually studies that it's really important when you do go through a stressful situation at work that you do have somebody that you can talk about it with that day. Because everybody needs to get things off their chest. And people process in different ways. Some people process because they need to talk it through. Some people process because they just want to be heard. So it is important to be receptive to listen to others. 

Sara: And, and especially, I think that for entities that do a lot of direct service work with folks who are going through tremendous challenge in this moment, it can be a lot. And again, I agree that it's helpful to have someone, helpful to have folks who get it and who understand, I think it's about developing the skills around that and how do we do this and how do we support folks to be able to do this, how do we build it into our practice to say, not just to repeatedly have folks experience. Because, I mean, whether or not you went through the trauma, by hearing about trauma, is traumatic. And it's not the same level by any means, and all of us experience that differently. 

But that becomes really hard when you're on the front line of an organization who's doing deeply important work, and you're hearing these stories, it has an impact. But how are we providing employees with that same amount of care, that same amount of respite, that same amount of space for what they're trying to do to help shape folks' lives? And that always doesn't get built in. It's hard to really think about kind of the impact and address it and understand it if it's just by one group or it's one group in one way. 

And I know your role is unique in that you get to hear a lot of those stories as a part of your work and you share, obviously with permission, those experiences and those stories and the impact that the team is able to make. But it doesn't mean it's not hard, right? It doesn't mean it's not painful. It doesn't mean it's not hopeful and transformative, but it's still high emotions, you know? I'm thinking about, you know, you've connected a lot of pieces. I think we're at our last question of the podcast together, Erin, can I offer you some feedback? 

Sara: Yes, please, Sara. I'm very curious. 

Erin: I know you are, and that's why I love chatting with you. So we've known each other a couple of years and, and we've worked on some small projects together and had a lot of conversations. One of the things that was kind of obvious to me immediately and has been reinforced over time is you are someone who has, in my perspective, a very strong quiet conviction. And what I mean by that is I can tell you care about something and intensely so, whether we're talking about public transportation or whether we're talking about the services that the entity you're working with is doing, you care deeply. And that comes across in the way that you're talking about it, the way you're approaching it, it's with seriousness, it's with intention, and It gets other people excited and engaged and interested. 

I've just been so excited to hear about the projects that you're working on and the folks that you get integrated. And I think it has a lot to do with how you talk about it and how important it is and not in a... You know, sometimes when people are trying to get folks onboard, they turn into like a personality or make it a show or make it splashy. But I think you can still approach the seriousness and the depth of it without losing the point and the purpose. And I think you just do it so well and I feel like my words are not describing it accurately. 

But there's this way that you go about communicating the impact and the importance, and it's very clear, and it's very direct. The feedback you've prior received, I do think you'd give direct feedback, I think you do it differently than what we traditionally think about as direct, meaning blunt, or coarse, or hard, or very candid. I think you clearly state it and you make space, which is not common in the way that, again, we think about directness. But I do think you get to the point, and I think you make your point clearly. Whether or not it's with deep preparation, I can feel it when you talk about things that really matter. 

And so, I think about that, and I think you've been a great example for me to kind of see different ways that people can communicate with power without being overtly powerful in the way that they're doing it, not aggressively, not loudly, and I really think that, for me, it's a cool example to see another way of how that gets communicated. So, I wanted to say thank you. Because I know I've appreciated seeing a different way of a similar skill being presented. So, thank you for that. 

Erin: Thank you, Sara. For my own growth, I tell myself to take up space. I've learned that my experiences and the lessons I've learned from those experiences, it's a unique perspective and that I'm actually a value to other people by sharing that. Can I give you a little feedback, Sara?

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. 

Erin: First of all, I think you're incredibly brave. It's so admirable that you looked into your life and how you wanted, but you saw a situation and a work environment and then you didn't take a step of like, how do I change jobs? But you took a step of, how do I, Sara, like really step out of myself and lead a bigger change? By empowering other people to create effective work environments where they can be incredible teams. 

I also always notice when we're at conferences together, you ask very good, thoughtful questions. And that in itself is feedback, because it tells people that you listened and that also for everyone involved, the presenter, the people in the audience, it's an opportunity for the conversation to get a little bit bigger. And by doing your brave, clear questions, you're an example to other people, too. So you're always one of the first people to raise your hand. You always have a good question prepared. And we all need that first person because there's everybody else has questions. They're just waiting. And they'll probably wait until the session ends. 

Sara: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Erin. And people are like, I just don't think I could. I'd get too nervous. I was like, "Oh, believe me, I put my hand up and then my nerves hit." You're like, oh God, perform it well, create a good sentence. I think that I really want to take the shot. I've got the question and I just have to, as you said, be brave enough to ask it. And whether it's in the session, if it gets time, or if it doesn't afterwards, people want to share. And if you had the question, just ask it. But it takes a lot of effort to do and a lot of bravery. So I appreciate you acknowledging that. So thank you. 

Erin, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on other thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.