Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #116
Show Notes:
Sara interviews Jonathan Reitz, a coaching entrepreneur with roles at Fluxify and Weatherhead, to explore the evolving landscape of feedback in coaching, especially with the rise of AI tools. They discuss how feedback impacts leadership development, the importance of self-awareness, and practical strategies for effective coaching. Subscribe to the podcast for new episodes weekly!
Episode #116: The Future of Feedback in Coaching
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (00:08.663)
Welcome to a special episode of Can I offer you some feedback? My name is Sara and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives and best practices on feedback. Today, I want to share this special episode where I talk with another coach who specializes in entrepreneurial avenues within coaching.
In this episode, we'll be hearing the insight across industries and what they wish they could give their clients feedback on. I want to welcome Jonathan Wrights to the podcast today. And he is a, well, you've got too many titles, Jonathan. That's definitely for sure. But, coaching entrepreneur and has roles at Fluxify and Weatherhead and many other entities as well. Welcome to the conversation today.
Jonathan Reitz (00:59.214)
Thanks, Sara. I appreciate you having me. Excited to talk about this because this, you're right, feedback is a landmine. And this will be fun to dive into it.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (01:05.855)
Absolutely. Well, let's get right into it with the conversation and a bit more about your specific perspective. Can you share a little bit about the primary areas of your practice?
Jonathan Reitz (01:18.114)
You bet, you bet. I work in three different coaching related foci. First and foremost, I do have a coaching practice where I work directly with leaders. I've got a fairly tight target of who that leader is and a, that's not a long list of current clients, but it's never more than eight or 10 at a time. So that's the first cohort. Then there's a handful of other coaches around me that we work together as sort of a boutique setup. The second,
area is developing coaches, training coaches, which actually is how you and I know each other, because that's something that you and I have worked on together. And do that at Fluxify and at Weatherhead and in a couple of other guest roles in programs as well. And then the third component is AI and assessment related conversations around coaching.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (01:52.685)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (02:09.677)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (02:12.962)
That really will be, well, actually, guess there's feedback components to all three of these. But the freshest examples I have these days come from that third component with AI tools and assessments in coaching environments and things like that. It's been a very interesting set of changes in feedback over the last 18 months, I think because of AI tools.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (02:16.931)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (02:36.792)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (02:41.613)
Yeah, I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about that. I know that for a lot of coaches, things change during and then post COVID, but could you talk a little bit about even just the changes, as you mentioned in the past 18 months? What does that look like?
Jonathan Reitz (02:56.216)
Well, the best documentation I can give actually comes from a study that I was a part of that I helped co-lead with Professor Nicky Turblange from Stellenbosch University in South Africa and Rebecca Richmond, who is an AI consultant in Germany. The three of us worked on a study where we compared the impact of coach bots working with folks taking on goals.
This study was literally released in the last week and we'll put a link in the show notes. I'm sorry, that was your line, wasn't it? That we'll put a link in the show notes. It was just released in the last week. And what our hypothesis was, was that familiarity and boundaries would lead to better outcomes with the chat bot. So we thought the grow model, which is the original model in coaching.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (03:26.777)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Reitz (03:50.06)
would be far and away the leader. We compared GROW to a solutions-focused approach, which is based on the work of Dr. Anthony Grant, who was a professor at the University of Sydney in Australia. And then for a feelings-based approach, we looked at cognitive behavioral coaching, which is based on the cognitive behavioral therapy model that's used in a lot of mental health work.
So our theory was that familiarity and boundary would outpace the other two. So we thought Grow would be head and shoulders, the leading deliverer. And what it came out was Grow was the by far third place finisher because folks were really willing to be transparent and bear their, their souls to this bot.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (04:24.601)
Mm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (04:28.601)
Mm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (04:35.053)
Wow.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (04:45.977)
Mmm.
Jonathan Reitz (04:47.31)
our hypothesis coming out of the study is that it was because of relative safety and boundaries in a different way. And the cognitive behavioral coaching produced far and away the best outcomes for the clients involved. So that has gotten me to thinking about what does this say to us about how deep
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (04:55.017)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (05:03.949)
Hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (05:16.472)
people we talk with actually want to go in these situations. And I think that comes down to how we respond in those moments. I actually think there's a tremendous openness for useful feedback delivered in a kind and thoughtful way. And I think I actually, my hypothesis, I'm willing to be wrong about this, because I haven't tested this yet, that's coming. My hypothesis is that
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (05:21.113)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (05:25.518)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (05:34.425)
Mmm.
Jonathan Reitz (05:47.746)
folks really do want to get input that will help them grow. And the fact that AI so seamlessly and easily brings up things that are potentially helpful, I actually think has actually opened the door to more feedback. Now, the second thing it really brings out to me, and I think this is a, again, I haven't tested this yet. This is Jonathan's hypothesis. This is coming off a study that is out in the wild one week.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (06:01.753)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (06:17.539)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jonathan Reitz (06:17.582)
at the time of recording. But my second thought is, what are we doing to teach leaders, managers, coaches, people with influence, what are we doing to teach people to read the room and get a sense of
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (06:34.393)
Mmm.
Jonathan Reitz (06:39.374)
hey, what is this person open to hearing from me? I actually think this is the superpower that emotional intelligence offers us. As we begin to understand ourselves, we're more able to understand the people around us. It feels to me like 2026 is the year to double down on that. that, I'm not sure I would name that.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (06:43.897)
Mm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (06:51.939)
Yeah.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (07:02.957)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (07:08.364)
That's what's happened since COVID, but I do think that or through the AI era, but I do think the folks that have taken COVID and the AI tools as an opportunity to reflect on who they are, probably have gotten better at that kind of thing. And I think that's the thing that a leader in 2026 can do most easily and most effectively, which is really interesting that those two would go together.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (07:23.693)
Yeah.
Jonathan Reitz (07:36.504)
But most easily and most effectively to raise their leadership impact is to build their own self understanding, their own self awareness for better emotional intelligence. Because you know what the core idea of emotional intelligence is, is that as we understand ourselves, we're able to understand the people around us. So do.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (07:36.515)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (07:56.823)
Right. And understand what some of those biases are as well. You know, what are we bringing into that conversation? And I think that sometimes, you know, as coaches or even consultants, we can see something brewing or something building either with our individual client or the team that we're working with, because I know you have a deep interest in team coaching. What are some of the ways where
You work with clients where you see a pattern forming, but they can't see it yet. What are some of the things that you might do to, you know, nudge them along that journey? Or do you wait until they see it themselves?
Jonathan Reitz (08:37.002)
Jonathan Reitz (08:40.782)
I actually do neither of those things. It's a hybrid for me. I am very careful.
And I hope you'll laugh at this. You've known me for a long time. I think you know what I'm about. I don't call things out of, I don't call potentially painful things out of people directly unless I'm asked or I'm in a situation like that. I have learned the hard way and this is maybe my own unique neurodiversity or my self-involvedness or my, know, it could be whole bunch of things.
I'm just not very good at it. So I want to be kinder and more thoughtful than that. So I will confirm, let's say you came to me and you said, hey Jonathan, I know you watched me in work settings. Could you give me some insight into what you see? I will typically make you ask twice and I will then warn you.
I want to have a conversation about this because what I say and what you hear early in the conversation, I'm almost confident will not be the same things. What I'm attempting to communicate, I'm almost 100 % confident that will not be the same things. So if this is amenable to you, let me make some observations and then let's have a conversation about what those actually mean. And
I don't offer, I've learned the hard way, not to offer quick hit feedback like that. And the transition that I've made in my own head, this is my mental model for this.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (10:28.601)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (10:39.034)
is I don't offer anything. I make an investment.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (10:44.793)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (10:46.606)
And you know, well as I do, offers are easy to bat away. But if you're willing to take an investment from someone, that's a commitment on both of your parts. And I have found that that really makes a huge difference. So rather than just offering feedback. So thank you for, for inviting me to this episode of the podcast that I'm not going to call. Can I offer you some feedback? I'm going to call. Can we make an investment in you?
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (10:52.377)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (10:59.949)
Right.
Jonathan Reitz (11:16.28)
So slight switch, maybe it's splitting hairs. the other thing, two other things I'll mention very quickly.
the single thing that I have seen most often today, and this is not germane to this season of living in the world. Way too many coaches build a beautiful coaching plan that has nothing to do with business outcomes.
If you're coach listening to this, I'm going to offer you two words of advice. This is going to be an offer. Two words of advice from the legend of television, Bob Newhart. I'm going to just say to you, stop it. Always have your outcomes be tied to business outcomes. That's first thing. Second thing.
Jonathan Reitz (12:07.158)
way too many coaches don't factor in the personality of the person they're talking
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (12:11.897)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (12:13.324)
And I watch that really carefully. Does the role match the wiring of the person? We could do a whole episode on that.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (12:27.117)
Yeah. I wonder when we're thinking about matching it to that person and understanding, you know, their unique style, their unique approach, how they need to hear that feedback. And that's something that you learn whether you're doing an intake process with clients or you're just getting to know them over time and just hearing a little bit about them. I think that there's a beauty in the intake process where you do it.
do learn a little bit, right? You get a taste of what this person is presenting themselves to be. I'm wondering if you can think of an example of a client or team or an organization whom you've worked with, it can be anonymous if you want, who you feel isn't just doing the coaching to check the box, isn't just doing this because, you know, management read some book that said, you know, this is the new thing we've got to try.
They really are committed to doing the work. How have you seen that with some of your clients?
Jonathan Reitz (13:30.274)
Okay, the...
There's been a handful of them. There's been a handful of them.
I'm thinking about a paper company. This is a company that they have a huge footprint. You probably have some of their products in your office right now, if you're listening to the company. It's not Dunder Mifflin. Let's just make that very clear. But they have a...
three or four strand, I think it's four strands.
Jonathan Reitz (14:14.246)
that coaching is evaluated from all four of those perspectives and two of them are personal development and self-regard, those kinds of things. That has become the rule, not the exception, at least in the people that I'm talking with. Now, part of that is because I screen for that pretty carefully. You mentioned the intake process, I do...
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (14:32.589)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (14:41.708)
I've actually split my intake process into two pieces. I do an intake process which is about me, which is about do I feel like I'm the right coach for this person and then simultaneously do I actually want to work with them? Because there's nothing worse from a coach practitioner standpoint to have a name show up on your calendar and your immediate response be, well, again, already? I've had that.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (14:45.145)
Mm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (14:57.529)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (15:11.444)
And I swore I'd never do it again. And yes, I have gone back to that client and apologized that I didn't, that I took the engagement for whatever the wrong reason was. I've rooted that out a couple of times. Now, the second part of that process is onboarding. Where...
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (15:13.219)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (15:35.532)
Yes, we're naming the business goal that we're going to try to work on. We're tying an individual goal or developmental arc to this thing that we're looking to address. Like I'll give you another example from that, from that paper company, brand new guy inside of a particular role. Probably will end up in the C-suite someday, this guy.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (16:03.779)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (16:07.246)
but he's been given a couple of really high level corporate projects. And he said to me in the intake process, I don't think I am who I need to be to actually deliver on this. And I thought to myself, this is my guy. We're gonna work together. And he put it on the table saying, hey, help me develop who I am as a guy as I'm thinking through what comes next.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (16:36.867)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (16:37.078)
And then it then became my job to tie it all together. So there were three specific strands that got tied together. One was the overall business outcome. The second was the individual's goals leading toward that business outcome. And then the best clients I think open up also to, let's talk about developing who you are, whether it's character, whether it's skills, whether it's...alignment of values or things along those lines. And those are the kinds of questions that I would suggest separate coaching cultures that really make an impact.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (17:16.281)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (17:17.87)
You know, in the weatherhead approach, we would talk about, they committed to helping you become your ideal self and not just live as your real self? You know, that, that for consultants or organizational leaders that are really looking to, well, you know what it does? It, it, boosts retention like crazy. So there's a very mercenary strategy here behind this, but the thing that it really separates the spectacular places from the average or slightly above average places.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (17:25.283)
Bye.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (17:37.059)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jonathan Reitz (17:48.234)
is that holistic component where business outcomes are named, individual contributions are aligned, and then we work on who the individual contributors are. At the various roles, I realize that that's a loaded term, individual contributor, but who the individual is that is going to contribute in that way. And when you get some synergy across those organizations.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (18:01.357)
Yeah, yeah.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (18:10.041)
Mm.
Jonathan Reitz (18:11.822)
across those roles, across those departments, when you get some synergy in various levels of all people working that way, that's when culture tips. That's a fun way to think about it. And I'll say this is the last thing. In some ways, Sara, it's harder to describe than it is to do. Because when you do it once, everybody in the organization wants it. So the first one's really hard.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (18:18.809)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (18:40.334)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (18:41.646)
2 through 25, not so hard. 26 through a hundred, you ought not to be leading it because you should have taught enough in the organization that they can lead with themselves.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (18:53.421)
Yeah. And plus I think that your excitement about it might change, right? There's a difference in the way you go about that coaching. Not that you don't like the people and they're not interesting, but the 26th person at an organization, you know, it's a little different. At least I've found when I've coached more than 15 people at an organization, I come with so much organizational knowledge because I've heard it, you know, over the course of how many sessions that I can put together some pieces that I shouldn't really know, which then biases the questions I'm at, you know, and I'm trying, I can try very hard not to do that, but it just happens, you know, and I know some of the names and I know some of the players. so that.
Jonathan Reitz (19:25.784)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (19:45.229)
whether it's 15 or 26 or whatever that number is, it's challenging, I think, to remain objective in the coaching questions that you're providing and the experience you provide.
Jonathan Reitz (19:56.75)
Two things I'm going to observe about that. One is generally speaking, the backstory, too much backstory is not helpful as a coach or a consultant because the discovery process gets short-circuited then. that, you, every coach consultant outside organizational facilitator, we have a shelf life. We truly do. The second thing is know thyself.
I'm ADHD enough that I know I'm going to need some novelty. I'm going to, I'm going to need to reinvent it when I'm not really diligent about monitoring it. I know I'm at risk of blowing something up that isn't ready to be blown up that which, which is a great way to never get hired again. So, you know, know yourself, no, no, I can, I can do six, eight in an organization.
And then I bring people with me where I work with them and they work with the people on the ground. then by the end of the second round, we're training people inside the organization to deliver it themselves. And now it's starting to become sustainable in some really interesting ways.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (20:58.521)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (21:01.881)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Right.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (21:11.511)
Right, right.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (21:17.281)
Right. Right. And that's part of the change that happens. you know yourself well enough to know, around this month, I'm going to need a little bit of an adjustment or around this number of clients. I'm going to need that kind of change.
Jonathan Reitz (21:31.214)
You know, that was a hard realization when it finally happened. Um, cause I thought I was Superman. then somebody inside of an organization pointed out that the S was my, the S on my chest was crooked. And I was like, Oh, you know, I guess I'm not kneeling this like I think it is. I wonder what's going on. And that, that actually was when I discovered I was ADHD is my constant default to reinventing things.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (21:45.849)
Mmm.
Jonathan Reitz (21:59.318)
in this situation was not helping. Was not helping.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (22:01.753)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (22:06.977)
And what a nice piece of investment they chose to make in you with that feedback. I'm curious, you work in the land of coaching from a number of different kind of perspectives, being a coach, coaching other coaches, training, working in a lot of different contexts.
What is something that you wish other people understood about the impact of working with a coach?
Jonathan Reitz (22:44.888)
The coach's direction to you is the least helpful part of the process. What I would, if you're thinking about working with a coach. The instinctual response is to say, you know what? I need to find someone who has done what I'm trying to do. And no you don't.
Jonathan Reitz (23:12.543)
It is helpful to have someone who has some similar experience. But the thing I wish folks would ask coaches is tell me how your experience doing this thing that I'm doing now equips you to ask me the best questions you can think of. Tell me how you use that experience to ask better questions. That's the coach you want to.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (23:38.435)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really like that because I think that, yes, I provide this context to the actual, you know, coachee that I'm working with, but a lot of times they want me to solve the problem, right? They want to present the facts and then have, you know, like, what should I do? And I'm like, I don't know, what do you think you should do? Like, I could come up with an answer, but I don't have all the details, right? And obviously it's a nicer question than that. And I have a lot more grounding on it, but I think that there's a misperception of who's doing the work and who really has the answer and how we get there.
Jonathan Reitz (24:20.542)
The worst possible place you can find yourself is when you start down that road and you offer something from your perspective and or experience and the client doesn't nail it. Every question that you ask, no matter what it is, sounds like what the hell's wrong with you in the ears of your client. And.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (24:41.753)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (24:45.558)
All of us have enough childhood trauma to know that very rarely does anything good come from what the hell's
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (24:51.289)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Reitz (24:54.254)
I'm stepping down off my soapbox now, sorry.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (24:54.391)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely the way of delivery. And I think I'm going to take that insight that you shared. For our last question in our time together, Jonathan, one of the things I like to ask is, can I offer you some feedback? I'd like to change it for today and ask, can I invest in our relationship? Fantastic.
Jonathan Reitz (25:17.953)
You bet, I would love it.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (25:20.409)
One of the things and we've met in a number of different scenarios whether you've been an instructor, you've been a mentor, not in the coaching sense but you know someone with whom I've had conversations about coaching and the direction. One of the things that I have always appreciated about our conversation is how authentic and grounded you are in real application, not just, you know, in theory and this is how I do it and this is, what I think about. And yes, we've had conversations about, let's say, the importance of having values or the importance of having a framework. But in the end, you actually talk tactics, you talk the logistics. And I think that that's something that's the shift that you do when at least in our conversations, I've really appreciated.
Sure, yeah, I can give you an outline or I can give you an example or you want like an example contract, no problem. But it's not the contract that you need, right? It's deeper than just the text that I'm sharing or the verbiage that you might use. It's what's behind it. I think of a specific example you shared when we were talking about team coaching and I think the question that I had asked of you is, what if they ask, you know, can you guarantee it's gonna work?
And your answer to me was, I can't guarantee it, but what I do say to people is if, know, every and I'm going to paraphrase, but if everyone shows up and everyone is committed to the process and everyone follows through and everyone is engaged in this conversation, it would be really unlikely for us not to like meet our goals. And I think about that. again, I'm not going to use that exact terminology, but you're right.
Jonathan Reitz (26:42.2)
I remember this moment.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (27:10.124)
assuming all these variables are perfectly in line, it'd be real surprising if it doesn't work out in some kind of positive way. And I've used that in coaching, I've used that in my practice thinking about our strategy, and I've really appreciated that you let people think beyond just what's being presented to them and then how we can think about application. And I think for me, that's really helpful as a learner and as someone who's doing similar work to you, I've really appreciated that in our relationship.
Jonathan Reitz (27:45.014)
you honor me with your kind words and I feel so unbelievably fortunate to get to do this every day. I can't even begin to tell you. The punctuation I'll put on that is my first career was in the news business. I was in radio and television. I was a news anchor. And I realized a few years after I discovered coaching, that what I did in the news business was talk about somebody's, the worst thing that somebody did on their worst day over and over and over again.
That's really what the news is, least in how I did it. There are news people that are journalists that are different than that, but I was not one of those. What I get to do now in coaching is to use everything I have to help somebody have their best day every day. It's much more who I want to be. And I heard that shift a little bit in your description, so thank you for that. That was a gift you gave me.
Sara Ismail-Beigi Bartlett (28:57.271)
Excellent. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in this special episode of Can I offer you some feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you and your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.