Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #73

Show Notes:

This week Sara talks with Liz, professor of environmental history. Hear their approach to conversations surrounding meaningful feedback, that is encouraging and promoting growth. They discuss the distinctions of gauging the type of feedback that needs to be given in different situations. What works for someone may look different with another person. Subscribe to this podcast today and so you never miss an episode! 

Episode #73: Promoting Growth Through Feedback

Sara: Welcome to, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest for the podcast today, Liz. She's a professor of environmental history. Welcome to the conversation today.

Liz: Thanks for having me, Sara.

Sara: Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback, what's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Liz: As an academic, it's to initially cringe over that phrase because feedback can mean so many different things in our world. It can mean feedback on your work that you've spent a decade working on. In some cases, it can mean feedback on your teaching or your professional experiences. There's just a lot of loaded history with that phrase.

Sara: Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard someone in the academic space say, I really love reviewers of my article, but we do like feedback. But I don't know if I've heard that same appreciation on the other side.

Liz: Yeah. For Halloween, for instance, many academics will go as reviewer number two, for instance, which is always the harshest reviewer. That's how they stack them when they send them to you. So reviewer one is the nice reviewer, reviewer two is always the bad one. It doesn't matter how they came in. They always are the way that it goes. Or it'll be an advisor that really picked on your work or some sort of horrific memory that you have.

Sara: Poor reviewer two. Poor reviewer two. When you're thinking about feedback, which do you prefer, to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Liz: I mean, I think with everybody being the giver of feedback is ideal because being the receiver of feedback can often mean critique. But in the case of being an academic, you end up being both the giver and the receiver quite frequently. So you are giving feedback to others at all levels. You are also receiving feedback at all levels.

Sara: Yeah. When you're thinking about and you’re giving feedback in a number of different spaces, whether it's to kind of peers and colleagues or even the students that you're working with at multiple levels, how do you open a conversation to give someone else feedback?

Liz: I think when I'm dealing with my students, I try to think about the different types of feedback that they need at different moments. An undergrad has very different needs than say a doctoral student or even a postdoctoral student in terms of the type of feedback that they're looking for and the priorities that I have in terms of that feedback. At the undergrad level, we want to encourage people's growth and we want to think about the ways that we are going to give feedback that's meaningful for them to take and to use to do that growing that they need to do.

And while that's the same for say a doctoral or postdoctoral student or even my colleagues, the way that we give that feedback can be very different. Sometimes it's more technical, sometimes it's more constructive and then sometimes we're thinking about kind of specific ways that we can push them to reach the next level of wherever their career is headed.

Sara: I love that you've kind of provided those distinctions based by level, but there's also the person how receptive they are to that, what type of detail are they looking for, will they run with it, will they crumble from it, how will they respond to it in those different contexts?

Liz: Absolutely. I mean, I had a professor at one point. She always had a box of Kleenexes on her desk, and it's because she was notorious for giving very pointed feedback. And people would often cry in her office. And so, she just pushed the Kleenex box forward as she was giving that feedback. It stuck with me since that point in time. While I do keep Kleenexes in my office, my goal is not to make people cry as they're receiving that feedback.

Sara: Right. And kind of connected to that, how do you define meaningful feedback?

Liz: For me, meaningful feedback is really not a fix this or this is awkward type of feedback. It's often constructive feedback that provides examples for ways or avenues to change the work, to push the work or to express new ideas. And so, I've stressed this with everybody that I work with at all levels, if you're going to provide a critique of something, you must provide a solution for how that would be fixed.

And sometimes when you are thinking through that side of it, the solution side of it, you're like, well, I can't really provide the solution and so you end up working through the problem with that person a little bit more poignantly. That often helps a lot in this feedback process because it becomes a conversation about what you're trying to accomplish with the way that you're providing this feedback.

Sara: Right. I think so much of the learning and research experience is very personal in what works for me in method and process and approach may not work for anyone else. I still might want to share it, but I think there's probably a fair amount of you deciding is this best practice what's best for me or what's best for them and deciding how to go about providing them guidance without providing a very narrow view of how something could be done. And that is not as common in some of the other fields. Could you share an example of maybe when you've seen or experienced yourself meaningful feedback delivered?

Liz: Yes. So I was trying to think through this because you sent the questions ahead of time. I was talking to my partner about it last night and looking through the questions. I attended this writing retreat a few years ago and I was introduced to a new style of giving feedback, and that has stuck with me.

And so, what they recommended at this retreat, and it's based on scientific research over what are the best ways to give feedback particularly in academic culture but it applies to all, and it suggests that you start with three questions that you ask the person before you start to give feedback. I've adopted this wholeheartedly, and it works so well for all different levels of feedback that I give.

So the first question is, what type of feedback are you looking for? And to really ask them to think about what's the purpose of the feedback that you're trying to receive. In the case of editing a document or providing comments on work that you're looking at, are you looking for a general overview of the flow of the work plus maybe some small edits to it? Are you looking for something that's a little bit more than that, but not in the realm of a really hard edit to the work?

And then the final option is maybe like I want some really deep in-depth editing on this work. So it could be copy edits, it could be hard constructive criticism, those types of things. And so, really having an idea of the type of feedback that someone's looking for really helps you kind of gauge the type of feedback that you're going to give that person, and that will immediately match up with what they're looking for and the type of work that you're going to do for them in that process.

The second question is, is there a particular section of say this work or this review that you want the most help with? So having them identify that section helps you hone in on what exactly you are going to be doing in this review of said work. And then the third one is, is there a section that you're most proud of? I

really like this final question. It's the one that like I think I get the most feedback from the person on how to give them feedback. Because I can go look at that section and I can say, okay, well this is what you're trying to accomplish in this work. This is what you're trying to do with it. Let's try and see if we can get the rest of your work to match what you're most proud of in this original work.

And so, now I use it in my undergrad classes when they're doing peer review, I have them start with these three questions in a conversation, and then they go do the peer review. I'm doing that right now with my thesis students as well. I do it every time someone asks me to review work just informally, so with my peers, for instance, as they send me like a chapter that they're working on or a journal article. And it really, really does help in the review process. So one, it lessens the time I spend on the review in some cases or it encourages me to spend time in certain areas and not others.

Sara: Yeah. I love that, that opening question as you were thinking, like, what type of feedback do you want? In a joking sense, sometimes I ask someone an opinion of, what do you think of this? And then I tell them the answer is, it's lovely and I love it. Like my request for feedback is really just tell me it's nice. Tell me I did a good job. I'm not actually looking for any constructive feedback right now. I'm looking for a good job.

But I like that second and third questions because it helps if you have the framing of this section is what they were trying to do, this is their best work, or this is their perception of the tone they want to hit, the structure they want to hit, the detail they want to hit, how much better than to give feedback on where the “gap” is between what they love and what they're trying to work on to help them see from another perspective, oh, okay, so this is how you would do? And then it's not based on how I would write it. It's based on how they want to write it and then go forth from there.

So, I really like that strategy and those three questions, even if they’re humorous responses, just say it's wonderful like, “Okay, we can do that. Let's talk about the things that are strong in here. Let's talk about the things that are good in here. Let's talk about the things that are working.” When you're working kind of with different levels of either the students that you're working with or even with peers and other colleagues who you're working with in lots of different capacities, if you wish people would do one thing better regarding feedback, what would it be?

Liz: Be kind, to be honest, and that's across all levels. Feedback is it feels so personal when you get it, even if it's not meant to feel that way. And even now I'm years into my career, I won't specify how many, but even now when I receive feedback, I often look at the feedback and then have to take a step back and maybe put it down for a couple days and then return to it.

And it doesn't matter if it was glowing feedback or if it was really critical feedback. It feels that way. And so, coming from a place of knowing that people put time and effort into their work and really recognizing that time and effort in the attempt to push them to move further with the work is the best approach that you can have when you give feedback to the work. That includes your students, to your peers, to your mentors, everybody that you're asking feedback for.

And on the flip side, if you were asking for feedback, I think recognizing that someone who's willing to give you time to give that feedback is really spending that time wisely. That they have agreed to do this and that you recognize that that is time and effort that they're going to put in with it. And so, realizing that the feedback that they give you is valued as part of that. Those are the two major things I would step away with.

Sara: Yeah. I think it's that kindness. Most people I think aren't trying to be unkind. They're just not thinking all the way and it comes out very unkind. But absolutely taking that time and acknowledging and hoping that the other person has tried to frame this, which is seeing, anticipating the kindness. Like this person was trying to be kind, how can I try and find the kindness in what they are delivering to me right here? So thank you. Thank you kind of for sharing that.

Liz: Yeah. I would also say that editing your feedback is key too. In the effort to be kind and remembering to be kind, you can write the first initial response feedback, but maybe don't show that just yet. Maybe you spend some time editing with that kindness in mind.

Sara: Yeah. Because I think it will give you some separation from what am I reacting to strongly here? If I'm feeling the need to provide like a whole redlined version of this document, what's going on if that other person didn't ask for that? Or that's not what they're coming to me for, what am I responding to? That's the level of feedback I'm wanting to provide and what else might be going on with that? Well, for our last question in our time together, Liz, can I offer you some feedback?

Liz: Sure.

Sara: Well, I wanted to kind of acknowledge in our experience together, we've known each other for many years. And you kind of touched on it today, which was perfect in a way for me to kind of re-highlight. I think that when you were earlier mentioning the framework of explicitly asking for the other person to tell you the level of feedback they're looking for, I've always found that in our conversations, whether just the two of us in a larger group setting when we're trying to accomplish a project, I feel like you have a very keen sense of the level, the degree of seriousness or criticality or the tenor of the conversation that the other person's looking for.

And I've been so grateful that in moments where I've maybe been on the fence of, do I want to just hear the honest truth right now, or do I need a little bit of a softer approach? You've somehow always managed to match me right where I'm at. I think that I appreciate that you really like this framework and I’m grateful for you sharing it.

I think that maybe it's a solidification of something you already do very well that you do have a sense of the level of feedback that folks are looking for. But the question is to get consent, the question is to get the other person's input and participation in it. But I've always kind of felt like you've read me at least pretty well on that as far as, am I looking for a full on let's go for it, let's talk about what's going on, or a little bit more of a kind of nuanced support and then explore?

And so, I've been really grateful for that and it's always very exciting when I get to hear about the work that you're doing, either with your students or with your peers or in your own research, and I'm just like, “Oh, she's doing it out in the wild,” literally in a way of being able to share that with others. The ability to see someone's work, see areas of improvement, but ask if they want it and sense if they're ready for it and tailor the delivery of it. So I wanted to say thank you for that and I hope that others get to see that in your work as well.

Liz: Sara, that is so nice to hear. I had not thought about those three questions as something that is just an overt manifestation of what I already do. But I will be thinking about it the rest of the day. I know that I very much appreciate you in all of our years of friendship.

Sara: Well, Liz, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, and thanks to you for joining us in another episode of, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback, or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.