Can I Offer You Some Feedback? - Episode #104

Show Notes:

This week, Sara is joined by Sophia, CEO of Illuminate You Coaching. Sara and Sophia explore the evolving landscape of leadership, the importance of psychological safety, and the myths surrounding inclusive leadership. Discover actionable insights and best practices for fostering a growth mindset and empowering teams. Sophia is the author of⁠ The G.A.M.E. of Life: Illuminated Leadership, Fulfilled Life⁠ and contributing author for⁠ Leadership Unscripted, the Real, Raw, and Remarkable Stories of Women Who Lead Boldly⁠. Subscribe to the podcast for new episodes weekly!

Episode #104: Navigating Inclusive Leadership

Sara: Welcome to a special episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. 

Today, I want to share this special episode where I talk with another consultant and facilitator, and coach who specializes in inclusive leadership. In this episode, we'll be hearing their insight across industries and what they wish they could give their clients feedback on. I want to welcome Sophia to the podcast today. She's the CEO at Illuminate You Coaching. Welcome to the conversation today.

Sophia: Hi, Sara. Nice to see you again.

Sara: Great to see you. I'd like to dive into the conversation today with a bit about your specific experience. Can you share a little bit about the primary areas of your practice and how you integrate with clients?

Sophia: Sure. So I'm an executive coach, so I coach executives. And I also do leadership training and speaking, and I also do some team coaching as well. And I believe that's where I met you, Sara, while we were going through the team coaching certification.

Sara: Absolutely. And I think that one of the things that's interesting is when you get to meet, you and our colleagues, but we never actually work together, is we get to hear a variety of perspectives of, oh we technically do the same thing, but we also do it differently. And so I love hearing about all those differences. I'm curious for you, I know you were active in your practice pre-Covid and now obviously it's not quite post-Covid, but I'm wondering what has felt different in the past four years in the land of leadership and especially inclusive leadership with your clients. Is there something that you're getting more requests for or that is more of a focus? What feels like it's changed over these past four years?

Sophia: I believe with the blessing in disguise from the pandemic COVID, the people started to realize that, hey, I can actually integrate my life in my work. Because guess what, when we're forced into the situation, we make it happen. So I do think that one perceptional assumption that we made where we have to separate our personal lives and our work have changed. We now are talking about life integration. We are now pushing the boundaries and say, hey, how can I make all of this work? 

And I do believe that's why we are demanding more flexibility. And I know we're talking about GenZs pushing these boundaries and all that stuff. I feel that we have always wanted it that way. We just didn't know, number one, that we can actually request for it and number two, that we can make it happen. And I think during the pandemic, it's proven that if we want to make it happen, we will make it happen and make it work.

Sara: Absolutely. I think probably social media has also been helpful in that. I don't think this is a new desire, the integration of work and life. I just think that the way it has spread and the way that people have been able to see how others are doing it, it's so much more easy now than it was maybe 10 years ago or 20 years prior. It's just the exposure to, oh, I'm not the only one who wants this. And here's how other folks are making it work either for them or in their organizations. And that sharing of kind of best practices or preferences and operation is a lot easier to communicate with the rest of the world. 

I'm wondering, sometimes I'm sure with you as well, when I'm in the leadership training space, a client will call me and they'll go for 30 minutes and talk about all the things that are wrong. And then they'll say, "Can you do two hours on blank? And that'll solve it, right?" And sometimes we can see that it's maybe a gradual problem that is built over time, or there's something real obvious that they're ignoring. What are some of the ways that you help your clients see what you see?

Sophia: Yeah, questions. So because I'm a coach, ICF coach, I do use questions to try to evoke their awareness. And my clients will come in knowing that I will try to help them to identify their blind spots. Because I don't live in their world, I don't see their colleagues, so all the information that I'm getting are from my clients directly. So I need to be stewards of their stories. So the way that I can help them to start realizing that there is a blind spot out there that needs to be identified is through asking questions. 

And also based on how long I've been working with the clients. And sometimes I identify a pattern by calling out, hey, a few months ago you said that you did this and this is happening again. But really also giving them that psychological safety to know that it's safe with me, that conversation, I'm just there to actually ask questions to help them to kind of stop and think. Because a lot of the time emotions will take over and then they don't know how they should think about a topic. And having another person to actually like asking that question for them to trust that it's out of good intention, really will help somebody to start realizing that there is something that maybe I need to double click on, that I need to do a little bit self-exploration.

Sara: Yeah, especially if they're willing to have that conversation. I mean, we can't make people have awareness, we can present them with the data and see whether they're wanting to move forward with it. I'm wondering if you can think of an example of either a client or an organization, you can keep them anonymous if you'd like, who, yes, they did ask you to work with them. Right, they asked you, they knew you, but they're also doing the work. Right? They, they're not just paying the check and like having you come in, they're really committing to it. I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about what's different with a client who does the work than just shows up for the work.

Sophia: Big difference. I can tell if a client has been, I guess, talked into getting coaching versus a client who is really wanting to benefit from coaching because the latter will be somebody who has this growth mindset and belief that he or she will be able to do the work, ask themselves the tough questions in addition to my questions, and really do a lot of reflection and build that self-awareness. 

And I'll say almost all my clients are kind of that way because I always, when I first started an engagement, be clear about them that you are the one who are doing the work, you are in the driver's seat. I am there asking you questions to try to promote that awareness, but you are the one who will be doing all the work. And I tend to set the agreement upfront. And I would say that many of my clients, which I'm very happy to work with are really into that growth mindset, that they believe they are like work in progress and they are learners. Because I coach executives and so they're constantly trying to say, what is the next S curve that I can hit? 

And for many of them, no problem with technical knowledge, no problem with business knowledge, but sometimes they don't have time to slow down and really do the self-reflection and say, is the style that I've been using for 20 years or 30 years still effective anymore? How do I work with a multi-generational workforce? How do I change my mode of communication now because people don't want me to communicate this direct communication anymore, they want me to make them feel like they have been heard. So a lot of that tweaking needs to be done because we are always evolving as a professional and then the work environment has always been evolving. Talk about AI. And I always say, hey, with AI, you now have to pay attention to your EI, your emotional intelligence.

Sara: I like that, Sophia. I like that. Well, I was just talking with a colleague about AI in that it can be helpful as a tool to maybe source you options or source you resources, but you still have to have the expertise to know which are the good and the bad. Like, if you don't know what you're looking at, then you won't know whether or not good. Like if you don't have the deep knowledge about... so if I have to come up with, let's say, 20 leadership topics, it's just searching a database. It's just searching a model for 20 leadership topics that come up. 

And I, because I know, or at least in the work I do, I know that some of the options, yeah, we don't use this term anymore or yeah, we are veering away from this, and sure, it comes up a lot. But that doesn't mean it's a good one to talk about. 

Sophia: Exactly, yeah.

Sara: But that's where expertise comes in, right? It's helpful to start the list, but I've got to fix the list because that's the extra element. And that is self-awareness, social awareness, that's that extra level as you were talking about with the emotional intelligence as a component. I really like that.

Sophia: Yeah, because I think AI, I'm sorry. I think that AI, I mean, it's not anything different from Google. When we first have Wikipedia, we're like, okay, watch out. Some of the information are not right. Or Google, we say, okay, you need to have that discernment. 

And I feel that with AI, with ChatGPT and so forth, you need to have a fundamental level of knowledge so that you can discern whether this is junk or not junk. Even my GenZ son is fact-checking ChatGPT as a hair, not good there, garbage there, right? So I do think that we need to fact-check AI because I actually do think that right now the information is actually still not reliable.

Sara: Yeah. Well, again, it's only as reliable as the data it's pulling from. Which is also true in organizations. Like, you have a certain set of data and you can make assumptions, you can make inferences based on it, but if your data points aren't good, or if your model is biased, then it's going to give you biased results. Because, again, and like, sure, it's wrong, but it's also pulling on what it knows and it's pulling it in unique ways. 

I'm thinking about this in the context of, so I know you work with a lot of individuals, but you also work with teams. You know, sometimes our job is tricky because we need to tell either our client or a project sponsor, I know you're trying your best, but it's not working. And maybe they're holding themselves back, maybe there's another factor that's holding them back. What are some of the ways that you deliver really hard-to-hear feedback about how things are really going to a client?

Sophia: Yes. Feedback, I would like to call it feed forward and I think Marshall Goldsmith is the one who kind of popularized that term. Meaning that if I want to give that actionable feedback, which is feed forward, I need to be helping them to look forward. Which means that I'm not kind of keep repeating the past incidents or events or behaviors. I really want to focus on the future. What are we going to be doing about it? 

And another thing that I want to make sure is also that I am not making this person feel unsafe that I am judging them. As a coach, that is really important. I need to be there and be non-judgmental. I am working with this person who is naturally creative and resourceful, but they may be psychologically unsafe to work with me. So that foundation of trust and psychologically safe environment is critical for me to be able to give that feedback. 

I do want to say that actionable feedback is one of the hot topics with my clients, regardless of where you are in the organization, you might think that you're at the top, you can easily give feedback, but then you don't go anywhere with the person you're giving feedback to. And so one methodology or acronym that I asked them to use is CARE, C-A-R-E. It actually has multiple iterations out there in terms of what words associate with that CARE acronym. But, I think it got started in the healthcare industry. 

And CARE, in my interpretation, stands for first you connect with that person, meaning that you have to ask for your intention. Do you really want to give actionable feedback to this person or not? Or are you setting a trap for this person their reviews? So really question your intent. Are you coming in with good intent, positive intent with the person you're giving feedback to? 

And then you need to make sure you connect with this person even before you give feedback. You can't be, this is the first time you have your one on one and you come in and you say, let me give you some coaching and you started to give them "coaching," which we all know it's not coaching. So, building that connection first is so important. It means that we're going slow so that we can go fast later on to give that actionable feedback. 

And then A means appreciation. So how do you give appreciation to that person about the values that they have been giving to the team, the contribution that they have made? This is basically to make them feel like they're still valued and respected because it's so vulnerable to give someone feedback. It's even more vulnerable when someone says, hey, can I give you some feedback? Because right away we're like alarm bells starting off. So really giving appreciation and help them to see that they are being valued and they are being respected. 

And then the R stands for respond. Respond means that this is where you have your conversation. This is where you say, talk about the issue at hand or behavior, but do not criticize the individual. It's not about the person. It's about the act or the behavior. And so really talk about that, showing the situation, the behavior, and then the impact. That's the SBI methodology. And then respond means that you listen, you let that person give you their side of the story because feedback or feed forward is actually two-way conversation. 

And then you also want to be vulnerable and say, what can I do better, actually, so that you don't do that again? They can say, you're never clear about expectation. You're never clear about the deadline. You say it's due on Friday and you'll come to me on Wednesday and say, is it done yet? So respond is where you are having that two-way conversation. 

And then the last one is empower, empowerment. You want them to. Walk away feeling that they are empowered. They have a plan. You want to say, "What does help look like to you?" Maybe they say, "I don't need your help. It's great that I can talk it out and let you know, give you feedback that you did not give me clear framework expectations, so I don't know how to do my work." Well, they may say, "Hey, I would like you to actually communicate with this other stakeholder and ask them not to continue doing this. That will jeopardize my work." Help them to walk away in a positive way with clarity, because to be clear is to be kind with clarity, so that they walk away feeling empowered and you feel empowered too. Sorry, a long-winded way.

Sara: No, I love that. And I love sharing models with folks. I think that some folks do not think that clarity is kindness. Clarity or being clear is about showing the, not quite unvarnished, but it has to be hostile. And it doesn't have to be hostile. Clear just means I can see it. It means transparent. It doesn't mean aggressive. It doesn't mean brutal. It just means I want to be clear. Which is tricky for some folks to do because with it comes a natural defensive response, and when people see defense, then they go on offense, just an understandable reaction. 

But if we go back to EI, emotional intelligence thinking about, okay, what about this is triggering me? What about what this person is sharing? Like, why am I getting frustrated about this? Like we both want the same thing. We both want to move forward and so, if we're not on the same page about that, sure, we're going to have potential conflict about the issue, which feels like it's about the people, which is not actually what it's about. But we get confused by that. Because again, in escalation, it can get clouded what the real conversation we're having is.

Sophia: Now, clarity, I do want to say that you do need to deliver your message with kindness, with respect. Because a lot of people forget that you actually still need to be respectful when you're giving tough feedback. Because you do want to show your intent, your positive intent. Show your belief that this person can improve. Yeah, because I do think that doing that pre-work and set the intention up front and letting the person know that you believe that they will be able to improve can really pave the way a lot smoother as you go along with the conversation. I mean, just saying, I believe you have a lot of potential.

Sara: Absolutely.

Sophia: Yeah, and can set up the stage so well for someone to receive feedback.

Sara: Absolutely. Because I mean, people aren't trying to do a bad job. 

Sophia: Yes. 

Sara: And if I assume that up front, and I assume the positive intent, and I assume the best stuff from that person, but again, that's hard. I get it's hard when you're frustrated. It's hard when it's not working. It's hard when you've had a rough go. Like, I get it. It's hard. And what also is true about this person, about this interaction? Like, 100%, it is hard when things aren't working, but there are also some truths about it. 

I'm wondering if, obviously you see the value in inclusive leadership. And I would imagine, your clients also want to do this. What is it you wish folks understood about the value or the potential impact of leading inclusively? Like, what are they missing when folks are choosing not to do that?

Sophia: Yes, common myth about inclusive leadership is that everyone gets to make decisions. I think that's a common myth. You cannot separate psychological safety and inclusiveness. To be an inclusive leader, you need to understand the concept of psychological safety. 

And I think that a common myth for inclusive leadership is that everybody needs to vote. But it's actually not democracy. It's actually setting up an environment where people feel safe, psychologically safe, that they will feel free to speak up, to voice their opinions. And meaning that you give people opportunity to speak out or voice their concern with the expectation that they don't necessarily get the vote because sometimes a lot of people don't have the entire context to be able to enter a decision. 

But as a leader, if you have to make a decision that is going to be impacting a lot of people, maybe some will impact some people in a negative way, you need to be able to express that you have thought through your concern. You need to be able to share your rationale so people will understand and that will also help you to execute better. 

Because when people feel like they don't have a voice, there are two things that they will be doing. One is they're just going to give you a watered-down effort and not execute the whole way. And that's how we come up with that frozen middle like term. Frozen middle means that middle managers just don't execute past the operational level. And number two, they will just be quiet and say, I'm just going to see how this pans out. And potentially there's a third option that they're updating their resume and looking to just get out when they see that you're not really listening to them. 

Sara: Right. I think you're touching right on it. I find so many organizations are extremely unclear about how decisions get made. Which sounds like an obvious, like, what do you mean people don't... I tell you right now, I have to spend extra time with so many groups being really clear about how do you make decisions? Like, is everyone pulling it and then one person decides? Does everyone have a vote? Is it majority? Is it consensus? And like, there's a lot of assumptions about, are we making the decision? Are you making the decision? What's your criteria for making the decision? 

And some folks are just like, I'm the boss, I get to decide. I was like, that's fine. I don't think people will riot if that's your choice, but you have to tell them. You have to tell them that like, I'm going to collect data, and then I'm going to decide on Tuesday. And like, I can choose to share the methodology with you or not. But if you're like, yeah, we're going to decide, what does that mean? 

And it's things like that, again, a lot of teams say like, we want everyone on board. Well, that's a really loose sentence. What does it mean to have everyone on board? Like, you told everyone or everyone agrees or everyone agrees enthusiastically. Because those are not the same thing. And there's, again, a lot of assumptions around that.

But you're 100% right. I think, even just that level of clarity, how is the decision going to get made? I'm okay with it, but like, don't tell me it's one thing and then do another thing. That's the frustration--

Sophia: Exactly. Consistency.

Sara: ...that causes folks to start looking at updating their resume. It's when you say one thing and then you do the other, whatever the thing is, but absolutely on the decision-making front. Well, you know, for our last question in our time together, Sophia, can I offer you some feedback?

Sophia: Absolutely. Feedback is a gift. Thank you for the gift.

Sara: Hopefully it doesn't feel as vulnerable since we do have that relationship. One of the things that I've really valued even though we haven't spent a lot of time one-on-one, we've been mostly in a team cohort or a training cohort together is, I really value when I'm in training cohorts and when I'm the one getting professional development, is hearing from colleagues, hearing from peers who do similar or adjacent work. And I found that a theme I observed you share consistently throughout our trainings was about psychological safety. You even mentioned it a few times today. 

There's lots of ways to build trust with clients. There's lots of ways to go about doing it. And the underpinning of trust, as I see you frame it is around safety. How do I make this person feel like they can talk to me? Like I've got their best interests at heart? That I care about them? How do I create the environment that really feels like that's true? And I feel like in our conversations, I have felt that connection. 

When I think about other trainings I've been in, there are some folks who it's easier to engage with. It's easier to have rapport with and kind of banter and conversation with. That's not the same as, I'm willing to dig into deep conversations with you. I can chit-chat with a lot of folks, but I feel like when we've had the opportunity to connect, we're actually talking about the work, not just the like, oh, what do you think of that activity? Or oh, what do you... It's different than just chit-chat. It's really reflecting on the topics and thinking about application and thinking about integration. 

And again, professional development has a lot of different potential uses. Some folks just want the chance to hear something new and then make new friends. Some folks don't want to make new friends and just want to learn something new. I really felt like you took the time to make it safe for us to connect and to hear those other perspectives and disagree and come up with other approaches. 

So, I really liked that and I think of that often when I'm in other training of just, okay, what can I do as another participant to help the person next to me feel like they can open up to me, that I can connect with them and that we can both get something more than the content from this interaction? So, I wanted to say thank you for that.

Sophia: No, thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me. It is validating for me, that is the approach that I will continue to use because I feel that when we don't have to worry about psychological safety, we're thriving. And if we have to worry about psychological safety, we're just surviving. And thriving and surviving feels so different for an individual. So thank you for sharing that with me because it means a lot. Yeah, thank you.

Sara: Absolutely. Well, Sophia, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, and thanks to you for joining us in a special episode of, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at podcast@mod.network. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow, you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.